As I said, I think every animal-derived product that can be avoided is good. When “do not harm” is unrealistic then “reduce harm as far as you can” is the best alternative. Still, one can view veganism as an ideal state that should at least be approximated as far as possible. And for that purpose calling something “vegan” is a good term. Thereby a company states that ethical and ecological considerations also play a role, that being plant-based is not just by chance or because it is cheaper.
But even regardless of that it would also be possible not to worry that much about terminology, because terminology can in itself become an ideology of its own. For me vegan means exclusively plant based - and the ethics of animal liberation would be “anti-speciecism” - which is strictly speaking not exactly the same as “vegan”.
What you need to understand, and this is no criticism, honestly, is that you couldn’t be considered vegan eating one day a week. That might annoy you, but it’s not a half in or half out matter. It’s an ethical belief system. I’ve been vegan four years and was vegetarian before this for 7 years. to give you an example, it is a belief system that at the core of it requires dedication to the belief that animals shouldn’t be abused or used. So for example I used to love maltesers. do you think I’ve never looked at a bag of maltesers and tried to mentally convince myself that it will be ok to eat them because the amount of milk in them is so minimal? I won’t though on a point of principal however, because a) I know that calves are removed from their mothers, b) male calves are generally killed within days with a bolt to the head, as they are pretty much useless to the meat industry, and c) that the average lifespan of a milking cow is around 5 or 6 years when it should be around 18. I also know that the animal that I consume the milk from, will end up at a slaughterhouse at the end of its milking term.
As I say, no criticism, I just wanted you to understand what it means to be an ethical vegan and to hold those beliefs. So I wanted to explain this because it’s only when you can see how strong those beliefs are, that you can truly understand and appreciate why people get annoyed at somebody calling themselves vegan who doesn’t in any way hold that belief. It’s not a diet you see. It’s a way of living.
So for example, someone who has no issue, or sees it is no big deal that they picked up a chicken sandwich from Greggs last week isn’t remotely vegan. It’s an all in or all out philosophy. And this is the issue as well, as it is an entirely philosophical belief as recognised under the equalities act. Hope that makes it a bit clearer?
Exactly Bee. It had the karma to die because the nun decided to eat it. It’s often an excuse ‘us vegans’ hear relating to “the animal was already dead, I just bought it from the supermarket”. It removes responsibility. being honest with yourself is a part of being enlightened in anyway. I understand when I buy single use plastic it is ultimately going to end up in landfill. I’m not perfect and I’m trying to reduce but I have to be honest with myself and realise that I am part of a problem. Me telling myself that it was produced anyway, and that this packaging existing was always going to be the end result is just a lame example of humanity at its worst.
Some might say that it’s like Harold Shipman saying his patients were elderly and on their last legs anyway.
Spot on, which is why I make no claims of that kind. I understand and empathise with vegans but I am not one and never could be.
That said, veganism is too much for many people, we are often just stuck in our ways, in terms of environmentalism generally as well as concern over animal welfare making a gradual reduction in meat consumption can only be a good thing.
No economy could withstand it if a country’s population went vegan overnight, but an emphasis on the welfare of those animals which are reared for consumption as well as an increase in plant/fungi based food products can only be a good thing.
We all need to start somewhere. Personally I envisage that eventually the food crisis and population crisis will cause humanity to need to move towards a yeast based diet with minimal plants and no meats whatsoever. But that’s a very long way off.
Haha. Personally I prefer Negan. It stands for ‘never vegan’, but is perfect for those that follow The Walking Dead and would rather have a bit of cred thrown in
It is an interesting question what would really happen if the whole populaition went vegan over night. Would it really have such a negative impact on the economy? The amount of calories people need would still be equal - there would no longer be demand for some products, but more for others. I think the impact would not be worse than that from the pandemic - some industries would die, yes, but others would flourish (unlike with the pandemic).
Maybe it is possible one day to synthetically produce animal products without the need for animal abuse. Without the need for any animals in the process at all. Even now there are a lot of replacement products right now. At home this is usually not a problem, but travelling or being somewhere else these are not always readily available, so not being able to stick to veganism might be a problem of convenience for lots of people in the end. But why not make plant-based products the default, and make it more difficult to get animal products in locations where the variety of available drinks or foods is limited?
In theory everything about speciecism and animal abuse is bad. Just in practice living according to these facts can become difficult, because the problem does not always feel pressing. It is just a theoretical fact. But if we took our ethics seriously there would be no alternative to veganism if you consequently think it through.
“Negan” is an interesting neologism. But unlike Negan those people don’t do the dirty work themselves and let those poor animals meet their baseball racket. If everybody had to do the dirty work himself almost everyone would be vegan I guess. Anonymity, the problem not feeling present, and industrialization seems to be the main problem.
This is probably going to be read as pretty reductionist and likely a bit flippant, but you appear to take a fairly hard line on any use of animal products meaning someone isn’t vegan, so; two questions: do you own a car? And how are you dealing with the new style 5, 10, 20 pound bank notes?
I take it this is heading into the realms of what I like to call the “gotcha vegan!” argument?
Veganism is a philosophical belief and a lifestyle that seeks to exclude “as far as possible” animal products?
I’ve heard them all before Tristan. It’s tiresome. From “plants feel pain”, right through to “you know that mobile phones use items mined by people who are (insert most heart wrenching element here)”. Or that tyres contain animal products.
Veganism is about reducing harm where practically possible. As defined by the Vegan Society. So when ordering car tyres I order Michelin for example, which are animal product free. The choices are made where they can be made.
Lastly, I don’t work in cash, but I don’t have a choice as to what the government use for tender. We don’t live in a vegan world. I have no choice therefore if someone gives me a fiver containing tallow. I’m vegan, not allergic.
No not at all. It was a genuine question only asked as you had a visibly hard-line stance and I was curious. I did have a feeling that’s how it’d be taken though hence reductionist/flippant as the discussion is much broader than “aha but what about X”.
That answers it for me, and I’m surprised there are vegan tyres. Shall try and buy those next time I have need.
Haha. I was probably more defensive than I needed to be it seems. It’s years of having my beliefs questioned. I’m not hard line though Tristan, this is the thing. To me it’s an animal rights issue above all else. So whenever I’m considering clothing, food, cars or whatever, then that aspect dictates what I can or can’t buy. For example I loved maltesers before I was vegan. But irrespective of how little milk it probably contains in reality, I can’t take the stance that once a year won’t hurt. It’s the principle.
I suppose in that respect, if my principles are seen as hardline, it’s a badge I’m happy to wear
I am highly sceptical of “replacement products” - because people add it as “nice to have” or to increase variety. Or if they really want to trick themselves into becoming vegetarian or vegan by feeling as if nothing changed at all they have a high risk of “relapse” - they eat correctly when they have the time and money to prepare a nice replacement product at home, but when they have to eat outside and are stressed they just use the normal alternative of the foods they are used to consuming. If the stop using these foods altogether they are fine to do without them even in those situations. So it is a much more stable and sustainable lifestyle.
No one really needs dead animals - or things that look like dead animal products. It is purely a matter of habit.
That is true. An ex-girlfriend, when she was a kid, used to carefully cut off and discard the white fatty bits from her breakfast bacon. Now, she buys plant-based vegan bacon, and STILL cuts the white bits off and throws them away - even though it’s all the same stuff!!
Some people - it’s like they’re not wired up right!
Early man didn’t get his avocado delivered out of season from across the world and Huel was a bit hard to prepare from his cave. He was far too early man.