The Founder backed Brexit


#201

We joined a trading bloc in 1975. By 1980 over 60% of the public polled wanted to leave it. Their concerns were ignored and instead over time, sovereignty was surrendered to what is now political project without our consent. It is criminal take real power is given away to a foreign body without the people having a say. We was told all along to buckle up and enjoy the ride but not all of us are. Euro-sceptics had to campaign for 35 years to get a referendum. One we wouldn’t have got had David Cameron believed that he would have been able to form a majority government without the Liberal Democrats.

  1. If we had voted to remain and 10 years down the line, it really isn’t working for the UK, it would have been impossible to leave. We would have been so integrated with the EU, that it really would have been a case of “Leave the EU and you’ll have no food or electricity.” - and the people would have believed it, because it would have been true. Older people have seen the direction it’s been going in and having been complaining for decades about that direction. Opt outs of the Euro were not enough, we believed over time with deeper integration our country would have been strong-armed into it.

  2. Immigration and freedom of movement. Immigration thanks to freedom of movement is great for the middle classes, but a nightmare for the working classes.

It means cheaper au-pairs, plumbers, electricians and handy men. All of those stocks and shares the middle classes hold in their pensions, ISAs and straight out direct stockbroker accounts were booming because corporations love freedom of movement.

The UK’s middle classes are more likely to have qualifications that are in demand within the Eurozone, so less bureaucracy to land that job that they had a good chance of getting anyway. Some young Brits work in the Eurozone in non professional jobs, but most of them will be employed catering to the UK tourist industry.

For every 2 EU citizens living in the UK, there’s one Brit who’s living in the EU. The Brit is more likely to either be a professional or in retirement, bringing their wealth with them.

We in the UK are taking in a larger proportion of people who are unskilled or semi-skilled EU citizens. I don’t blame them for coming here. Of course they are going to come here, unemployment in many EU countries is higher than the UK.

All of that is pushing down wages on the lower end. It’s a double negative for working class people, while being a double positive for middle class people who prefer to be more mobile to chase those lucrative jobs.

Considering that key marginal seats in the country are middle class, is it any wonder that all 3 main parties fighting for middle class interests like lions?

  1. Democracy and Transparency.

The Commission is appointed, with just 28 people having oversight on the legislation with vastly unequal representation.

Luxembourg with a population of just shy of 600,000 has Jean-Claude Juncker as President.

It is true that the European Council sets the direction of the EU but it’s the European Commission that draws up the legislation and negotiates the trade deals. The role of the European Parliament is to rubber stamp or reject such legislation.

After 45 years, it clearly doesn’t work. We’re sick and tired of being told it can be reformed for a bunch of Eurocrats to tell us that the way to solve it is MORE of what we don’t want. More expansion, more integration and more sovereignty being given up by member states.

But hey it’s all very good for the corporate lobbyists. No longer do they need to lobby in 28 countries, they are all in Brussels now. And that is what is so dangerous.

Corporate Europe is so close to the EU, they are well embedded into the Brussels social scene. They eat in the same restaurants, get drunk in the same bars…and all of it is a different world than that European tax payers live in.

We took back control. It can all be done in Westminster now. If we don’t like the job they do, we can vote different people in and those manifestos will actually mean something again.

  1. Trade deals

We can invoke the WTOs Article 24 with the EU and simply do our own trade deals. New Zealand was in a similar situation when we joined the EU. They are still here and have prospered.

We can be sure that trade deals that we strike are in the interests of our country and even more importantly, we can be sure they benefit poorer people in our country rather than pandering to headline figures about GDP.

  1. Our trade with the rest of the world is growing while our trade with the EU is decreasing in percentage terms.

  2. Economies across Europe are different. Trade and monetary policy cannot possibly be in the interests of 28 member states. Some countries will win, some countries will lose.

Some countries need a strong Euro, others need a week Euro.

  1. Centralisation of power is bad

The centralisation of power has always been a bad thing.

Regardless of individual intent, the system encourages people to be corrupt. People doing well out of the whole thing tend not to listen to those that aren’t. The more power someone has, so as is the chances of tyranny. You only need to see what is happening in China to understand that.

  1. British law for British interests should rule supreme.

This allows us to regulate our own economy in our own interests.

  1. The wealthy own land and they benefit

70% of the land in the UK is owned by fewer than 6000 people. Rather than paying taxes they are being subsidized … with our own money. 40% of the EU budget goes to CAP and most of the money is ending up in the hands of some very wealthy people indeed. You know, the likes of Lord Hesiltine.

  1. Fishing

We had the largest fishing fleet in Europe and now it’s next to nothing. Don’t talk to me about fishermen selling their fishing rights – most did that to avoid bankruptcy.

No one has pretended this would be easy. No one said it would instantly turn the country’s fortunes around.

We was told it is a “Once in a generation vote.” - We’ve voted to go in a different direction to the EU.

Leaving the EU was never going to be a silver bullet. It doesn’t solve many problems but unless we leave, the long suffering working classes simply don’t see any mechanisms that can ever be built that will even start to solve their problems.

It really was a working class revolt. Either the middle classes don’t understand working class folk, or they do understand working class, but are really pulling out the stops to have us wiped out.

I’ll answer your question concerning the banking crisis tomorrow or Tuesday. There’s only so many hours in the day.


#202

I need a fortnight Euro


#203

Thank you for posting. While I disagree (sometimes strongly) with the points you’ve raised, it’s good to see the viewpoints of people who voted differently to me.


#204

Opps! LOL.


#205

Great! I like him even more now. Theres a lot of snowflakes and crybabies in this thread. I hope it isn’t the Huel.


#206

This is exactly what I said not to do in this thread.

Last warning. Debate not childish name calling.


#207

No it wouldn’t - we would have blocked further integration.

See above - plus the fact that more than 80% of the time, EU votes went Britain’s way. Of the 20% that didn’t, a large proportion were abstentions. We would have blocked it, along with several other countries.

The commission is made up of representatives, a team sent from each EU member state with a commissioner at it’s head. It is not just 28 people. Those commissioners put forward what their national governments want them to - they don’t just decide and put stuff though on their own. Anything they put forward has to be voted on by MEPs to go through. We elect the MEPs - and again, in more than 80% of votes it goes the UK’s way.

The commissioner is nominated by the member countries and is then confirmed in post only after a majority of countries agree.

The current term ends in October 2019. It’s a 5 year term.

Exactly - the European parliament, WHO WE VOTE IN TO THEIR POSITIONS.

After 45 years it clearly does work - not saying it doesn’t need to be looked at and improved. But with over 80% of votes going the way the UK wants, the UK being one of the main influencers in the EU and the UK becoming, and remaining, one of the richest countries on the planet while in the EU. It clearly works for us.

What exactly don’t we want? Who are, ‘we’? I don’t want long lengthy essays, but I think we need more than vague Daily Mail style lines. At what stages have we given up big chunks of sovereignty? At what stages has the UK made huge steps forward in integration and why was that bad? What actual individual EU laws have been bad for the UK and why?.. Without going on a rant about immigration…

Corporate lobbying is bad, yes. Look at the last few British governments. They’re basically run for MPs and ministers mates.

The EU fined Google $5billion, in 2018, $2.7billion in 2017, Intel £1.5billion, Qualcom $1.5billion, etc, etc… Whilst the UK government largely let them do what they want and also - let them pay next to no tax.

The EU is introducing and working on more laws to stop companies playing one country off against the other to avoid paying taxes.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-6853_en.htm

Jesus…

The UK parliament is sovereign, it always has been. This is pure balls. The EU has never tried to change any central tenet of our law or democracy. OH NO! The EU is saying we can’t have kid’s toys that might take an eye out - what a bunch of terrible dictators!

It’s largely trade and safety so that we have same standards across the EU and everyone can trade and know what they’re getting or not getting.

Give me examples of laws that have been changed by the EU against our will that have done us harm.

Not true - invoking article 24 requires an interim deal. What part of ‘no deal’ is unclear?

It does and always has.

Cool! So instead of reforming it from the inside - we’ll decimate the entire UK farming industry.

Rubbish - this country’s problems are caused by the British government, not the EU. It’ll be interesting to see who gets the blame once we leave. Oh yeah, sorry, it’ll be the EU’s fault for screwing us over of course.

No it wasn’t. That is such a patronising thing to say. Just as many middle class little Englanders voted for Brexit. It was not a working class revolt. The working class are not some kind of hive mind. Neither are they all thick, or Brexit voters. Do not include me in your definition.


#208

I didn’t call anyone a name or attack any individual poster. I was speaking generally. And I stand by it.

The truth is you shouldn’t have allowed this thread. It’s totally inapproriate. There’s other places online for remoaners to spout their drivel.

And while were at it:

And yet this is exactly what you’ve allowed. Hmmmm.


#209

Yep good point.

After keeping this open for 3 weeks, I’ve closed the thread because it keeps going off-topic, I can’t seem to keep people having a reasonable debate and I can’t work out a way to please everyone without being told I a) am censoring people b) the thread is inappropriate and putting people off Huel and I should have closed it already.


closed #210